Episode 12: Visiting Italy: A Love Story

Mary Herendeen:

Imagine soaking in the scenery of the beautiful lakes or coastal towns, falling in love with the lingua Italiana and incredible art museums, all while indulging on local favorites like gelato and espresso. You can experience it all in Italy.

Welcome to Traveling With AAA. I'm your host, Mary Herendeen. Today, we are traveling to one of the richest and most evocative cultures known to man. Joining us is Susan Van Allen, the author of 100 Places in Italy Every Woman Should Go and former staff writer for the Emmy award-winning TV show, Everybody Loves Raymond. Susan, grazie! Thank you for joining us.

Susan Van Allen:

Grazie a te! Ciao!

Mary:

We are so excited to have you. Susan, I've been to Italy just once in my life, and I absolutely fell in love. For me, it's the food, wine, culture, and people. What sparked your love for Italy?

Susan:

I fell in love with Italy at a dining room table in Newark, New Jersey. My maternal grandparents were Italian immigrants, and they filled Sunday dinners with all that wonderful food. Just like how you fell in love with it, it first came through the flavors and that feeling you had at the dinner table of such love and abundance.

Mary:

I love to hear it. So you’re Italian, and you’re family’s Italian. Now, I'm thinking of the Everybody Loves Raymond dynamic. Did your upbringing and experiences inform your writing on Everybody Loves Raymond?

Susan:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Especially the parents, Frank and Marie. In fact, the first episode that I wrote was called, “Marie's Meatballs,” and it was about Marie trying to teach Debra how to make Italian meatballs—spaghetti and meatballs. Making them correctly was a very, very important thing in my household. So, it certainly did influence me.

Mary:

OK. I feel like I'm at home with this story because my husband’s grandmother is from Italy, and she and his aunt taught me how to make meatballs. And it's so funny, I love cooking for her and I love getting her approval because it means I've really done it right, and it's authentic. She's so funny when she comes to my house because she'll ask me, “Oh Mary, is this dressing homemade? Did you make this?” And if I did, it's met with a lot of approval and she’ll use a lot of it. But if I say, “Oh, I got this one from the store.” She will respond with, “Oh, no thank you. No, thank you.”

Susan:

That's absolutely like Marie from Everybody Loves Raymond, right?

Mary:

I love it. But she really has taught me a lot, so that’s exciting. Now, how many times have you been to Italy?

Susan:

Oh, countless times. I first went before you were born, my dear [in an Italian accent] Maria, in 1976, right out of high school. I was dying to go. Since about the year 2000, I’ve been there at least every year, and in the past decade, more than that. I love to go in the spring and fall.

Mary:

Wow, that’s amazing! So what was that first experience like for you? Was that the most impactful?

Susan:

Yes! It was the most memorable. I still think of it when I go to Rome—arriving in August when everybody says you shouldn’t go because it’s so hot. That first sight of the Colosseum, the Forum, and cars whipping around that circle. You have this modern scene against thousands of years of history, and you could touch it, and it’s big. It’s colossal. It’s the Colosseum, and it’s right there in your face! So that’s what really made such an impression on me, and it still does.

Mary:

It’s so incredible, wow. To your point, when I went, I was blown away by these modern comforts against the backdrop of all this history. It’s just so amazing. Do you think it’s as romantic as people say it is?

Susan:

Oh, I definitely think it is. I see people soften when they go to Italy. Everybody is so happy; you forget your worries, and the images are so evocative. For example, when you walk into The Uffizi, you see Venus coming out of the clamshell in all of her curviness and beauty. I’ve stood and turned the other way to watch the people walking into the room, and I see couples start to hold hands and embrace. You just feel that way.

Mary:

It’s amazing. Now when I went there, I went alone to visit my brother who was in Northern Italy at the time. And to your point, it’s amazing just watching people and their reactions to the beauty all around. Even being there alone, I thought was really romantic.

Now, you wrote the book, 100 Places Every Woman Should Go in Italy. Can you share a few of these places? Maybe how you chose them?

Susan:

Yes. Well, I was inspired because I met so many women like you who felt embraced and happy when they were in Italy. I believe that it’s because as soon as you get off the plane, you see these images of Botticelli’s Venus or the Madonna. You see a woman being adored like women have been adored there since the earth was cooling. It is a matriarchal culture. Everybody loves their mama, their nonna, the Madonna, and Venus. So, I started out by going to these wonderful temples where women have been worshipped. For example, it's amazing to go to The Valley of the Temples in Sicily, where the temple to Juno is, the goddess who’s married to the king of the gods. She was the queen of the gods.

But also the many beautiful churches where you get to see art for free. You could walk into a church in Rome, and see a masterpiece by the Renaissance master Caravaggio. And so, I write about that and the wonderful sensual pleasures like the beaches, the spas, and the places in nature where you could go to feel embraced. There are also beautiful parks and, of course, I write about shops in Perugia and [V1] Umbria where you could see artisans making leather or weaving in a workshop. I can go on and on.

Mary:

Oh, I know. To your point, when I visited Florence, even if you’re not looking at the beautiful carvings or sculptures, you have the stained glass and woodwork. Everything is so incredible. It’s just too much to soak in at once. You really have to sit, look, and watch. Even the people watching was so amazing for me—and the shopping! Personally, one of my favorite hobbies is shopping.

Susan:

Yes!

Mary:

Window shopping, strolling, maybe having a drink and some great food. I really enjoyed that. I actually have a leather bag I got in Florence that I still have; I use it for special occasions. I try to keep it nice.

Susan:

Oh, but they last a long time because they’re so well made. There’s such pride in craftsmanship there because it’s been going on for 500 years, and passed down through generations. What I always tell people when they shop in Italy, especially for artisan projects, is when you go into a store, it’s not like going to the CVS in Los Angeles. This is somebody’s home, it’s somebody’s tradition, and even if they don’t speak English all that well, you really can communicate with the artisan. And it makes a difference in your whole experience of buying something there. It is very personal, and I love bringing that home.

Mary:

Yeah, I also have a pair of earrings that I got there, and I don’t know if this is the most beautiful pair of earrings I have ever had, but what’s great is that little piece of the culture and my experience that reminds me of when I was there. I remember the interaction with the storekeeper when I purchased these earrings. And so even though at first blush, they may not be the most beautiful pair earrings I’ve ever had, it really feels that way when I wear them. And it reminds me of that amazing experience.

We’re talking about places women should go, and I definitely love the shopping, but do you think Italy is a great destination for families?

Susan:

It is so great for families. One of its great natural resources is the wonderful, welcoming Italian people, and they love children. If you take a baby through a market there, just be prepared—it’s going to be slow because all the women come and do the cheek pinches and all that.

I went there recently with my 4-year-old granddaughter, and she was so taken by the big statues, fountains, the gelato, and the pizza. It's a little cliché, but sometimes Roman waiters in the city can be very proper and, “I'm too busy to wait on you,” but as soon as the kid walked in, they practically kneeled at her feet and asked, “What do you want?” So, I think it’s great for all ages and families because as kids get older, they get interested in history and it's a great learning experience. It’s easy for families.

Mary:

You’re right, they're not bothered by children. I have 2 little ones myself, and when I went there, I visited my brother, who had 2 little ones at the time. And to your point, I may be annoyed and watching out for their behavior, but the people around will pay attention to them and be like, “Oh, they're so cute.”

And the kids love it, they don't always have to be entertained by other things. They love the fountains and the beautiful scenery. We went to this museum, and the kids were like, “Oh, look at this,” and I'm thinking, “Oh my God, don't touch anything,” so we had to keep an eye on them for a few things, but they enjoyed it.

Now, I love Italian food, and obviously, you've grown up with it. I'd never been a fan of tiramisu until I had real tiramisu in Italy. Do you have any favorite dishes? Regional specialties? Maybe recommendations?

Susan:

Oh yes, I do! As far as recommendations, I say have the food in the place where it's a specialty. In other words, have pizza in Naples. I actually wrote for Westways Magazine about the best pizza in Naples. Have fish dishes in Venice, Bolognese in Bologna, and it will be fantastic. Rome has a great pasta tradition with carbonara, which is pasta made with guanciale, egg, and cheese, which is so great. And also, cacio e pepe.

In Sicily, the sweets, oh my gosh! You will just swoon over the cannoli in Sicily, it’s so fantastic. I have a lot of favorites, but sometimes I'll be with people in Venice, and they’ll say, “Well, we had pizza, but it wasn't very good.” It's because it's not really their thing. It's like having key lime pie in Boston or something. It’s not going to be so great, you know?

Mary:

Right, that's so true! If that's their specialty and that's the thing that they focus on, you definitely want to try it from where it originated. That sounds like a great tip, I love that. Find out what the local specialty is and eat that.

Now, do you have any insider tips on eating out in Italy, so a visitor doesn't feel like a tourist? I know there are traditions or just certain expectations. Can you tell us about it?

Susan:

Right. Well, I would say beware of the places near the main monuments where the waiters are out there calling you in. All you have to do is turn the corner, and you're going to find a beautiful trattoria or a quieter place where mama's cooking and all of that. I would research the specialties, and local bloggers who have been around for a while. Ask the taxi drivers where they eat. I always love that! If you're on a trip with AAA and you have free time, ask your local guide and they'll tell you, “Oh, my favorite place is around there.” That's really the best way to do it. Sometimes, the print guidebooks have been repeating things for a long time, and they might send you to a place that hasn't been checked up on—all things change.

Mary:

Yeah, that makes sense. So, definitely ask the locals. I'm sure they’ll know places.

Susan:

Ask the shopkeeper where you bought your purse!

Mary:

Right. Well, that's amazing. Again, I was in Northern Italy when I went, so I never made it to Rome, but I plan to go back. In fact, Italy is on the list, along with Ireland and a few other places.

Susan:

Oh, yes.

Mary:

I know there's such a variety, not just Rome, but Venice, Florence, Milan, Bologna. How do you choose where to start?

Susan:

I really encourage people to think about what they love the most. If you love nature, I wouldn't put myself in Rome right away. If you love art history, you might want to start smaller in Florence. I think Venice is a beautiful place to start an Italian vacation because when you land there, you have to slow down. There are no cars or motors. You have to walk, and you will get lost…

Mary:

Yes.

Susan:

And you have to embrace that! And with the water and the vistas, you are automatically embraced by the Italian spirit. So, I think that's a great place to start a relaxing Italian vacation.

Mary:

I flew right into Venice, and to your point, it's beautiful. It does force you to slow down and it’s just amazing. Talking with the locals, turning that corner, finding that restaurant that's a little off the beaten path. Any other ideas on how someone can get a real insider feel of Italy? Maybe renting a villa or something that really immerses you in the culture?

Susan:

I think as well as being in the cities, getting out to the countryside, because there’s a very rural aspect to Italian life. Even in the cities, the markets are filled with produce, fruits, and vegetables that just came in and everybody knows the seasons like, “Oh, if we're in Rome in April, we'll get artichokes. If we're there in June, we get these beautiful fragole di bosco,” which are tiny strawberries from the nearby hills. So they're very attached to it, and you won't be able to get those products any other time of year.

So, try to include a countryside stop, but there are also so many great offers now and you can do them on AAA trips, like taking a cooking class. I think that's like getting a backstage pass to the country's culture. If you're in a kitchen with a signora or a local chef, you really understand the culture so much more, so that's a great way to do it.

Also, there are biking and hiking vacations that get you walking around farmlands and things like that. And when you're with a guide in a museum, ask them questions. Maybe have a coffee with them and ask them about their lives like, "What’s it like to be a mama in Italy these days? What's it like to have gone to school there?” It's really interesting. And they're such social people, they love to answer questions about their culture and their lives. So, that's how you do it. You wonder.

Mary:

Yeah, it's a great way to take some of it with you when you go. It's amazing, thank you for sharing that with us. I'm definitely thinking about cooking classes. I know that you can visit places where they make prosciutto or parmesan, or even vinegar. Are some of these countryside places?

Susan:

Yes! Yes, there's a region called Emilia-Romagna where Bologna is, and everyone says Bologna is the food capital of Italy. There you have Parma, where they make prosciutto di parma and parmigiana. And Modena, where you can visit a place where they make balsamic vinegar, which is often in people's villas or big homes up in the attic. They have it in barrels that they monitor for as long as 12 or 25 years to make amazing balsamic vinegar. After you visit one of these places to see how parmesan and real balsamic vinegar is made, you’ll never balk at the prices again. You see the dedication and the time it takes to make these wonderful products. It's great.

Mary:

I think that's why my husband's grandmother really enjoys it when I say something is homemade and I've spent time on it. His aunt had gifted me some vanilla extract from home and they’ll make a few other things, and she'll give me that, but they love to see that you're using it. I think it's because of all the love and care that goes into it.

When I say, “I just got this bottle dressing,” she doesn't feel the love in that. In fact, when I go to visit her for lunch, she's like, “You can't just make a sandwich for somebody. It's not respectful.” So, when I go there, she's got meatballs and bread; she's made a salad and all these things. I'm like, “Oh, I'm just here for a light lunch,” but she says, “No,” you just show your love that way. They put so much care into it. So, this explains the story behind my dressing because somebody who’s used to putting so much love and care into something like balsamic vinegar, it makes sense, right?

Susan:

Yes, absolutely. It's a tradition. It’s a ritual, and the main thing behind it is this big heart. They really care about your enjoyment of everything, from food to just a scoop of gelato, even to how much you loved the museum that they showed you. They have a lot of pride in their culture.

Mary:

I can see, and they should. I mean, it's amazing. The food, the art, it really is beautiful.

Susan:

It is! It really is, absolutely.

Mary:

When I visited Florence, I saw the statue of David. You hear about it a lot, but to really see this beautiful thing, this beautiful sculpture … I'm speechless, and that's not easy for me if you know me at all.

Susan:

No, it's true. We should remind travelers that they should always make reservations to see such masterpieces.

Mary:

Oh, yes.

Susan:

I recently saw The Last Supper, which is kind of a ritual to see. You have to make a reservation way in advance. You get to go in for 25 minutes, and first you're in a special room where you're kind of decontaminated just to walk in the room. And what's wonderful is that you don't get pushed around because you can only go in small groups. But it’s a whole other experience to actually see something that you've only seen in art history books, on postcards, or on YouTube. To be in the place where The Last Supper was created for us, it’s just amazing.

Mary:

Somebody might balk at having to make a reservation, only being able to go in in small groups, not being able to take pictures, and having to decontaminate yourself, but it’s so important to preserve such a beautiful piece of art so that generations and generations can enjoy it. And to your point, with COVID, all these new protocols, and with people really wanting to get out, I think people are doing a bit of revenge travel, right? So, you might see a ton of crowds. What are you seeing, Susan?

Susan:

Oh, absolutely. I’m seeing crowds. I am seeing happy bursts of energy because people are so happy to be back and moving around, especially without masks. Especially Italians because they're so expressive. They want to smile and do the double cheek kiss and all of that. It was so hard for them during COVID. I went back in October when travel first opened, and then I went again recently, and you can feel the difference. They're so relieved that they can express themselves. They were doing it with their eyes, you know, smizing.

Mary:

Smizing!

Susan:

Yeah, but now they can do it with their whole face.

Mary:

That's interesting because you lose so much. What do they say? I think it's something like 38% of what you communicate is just through your expression and your body language. And not being able to have that can be really challenging, especially for a culture that's so used to having that closeness, physical touch, or use of expression and body language to communicate with people. And then having to do everything voice to voice or virtually without any touching at all. Everybody is probably bursting with energy and really excited.

Susan:

Yes. They are ready, and so happy that it's back. That's the main thing that I felt when I was there.

Mary:

Of course. Now, are there any COVID protocols or requirements that people should be aware of?

Susan:

I think you should still bring your masks because it was still required in certain museums, like the Duomo in Milan, even though the organizations can do what they want. It was also still required on some trains. And just to feel safe. A lot of travelers I saw were still wearing them because we'd like to be healthy when we travel.

Mary:

Well, that makes sense. Nothing like getting sick in the middle of a vacation to really set back the experience.

Susan:

Oh, right.

Mary:

Or being quarantined somewhere and having your stay extended more than you anticipated. My mom was over in Italy when there was this volcanic eruption. When was this?

Susan:

Oh!

Mary:

I can't remember the time, but I think she was stuck there for 10 extra days. And I'm thinking, “If I want to be stuck anywhere, it’s in Italy. That's okay! I'll take it.”

Susan:

Right, that was strange because the eruption was far away, but there could be no plane travel.

Mary:

Days and days later, she ended up driving like 8 hours, and getting on a train and then a plane to somewhere else. And it was just crazy, but I thought, “Wow, if you're going to be stuck anywhere, why not there?” Right? It's gorgeous. Even if you're not out seeing all the art, just being there in the culture, with the food and surroundings. It’s beautiful.

Susan:

Any mishap that has happened to me in Italy, like a delayed train or somebody doesn't show, it has always ended up in another beautiful experience, and I've learned to trust that more and more as the years go by.

Mary:

That was the great thing about it. She was there to visit my brother who just had a new baby, so it was very agenda-driven for that week that she was planning to be there. Then with that extra 10 days, she got to spend time with the family, and have less of an agenda to be able to bond with the new baby and all those things. So, I know that it was unexpected, but a really good experience overall.

Now you said the best time of year to visit is kind of in the early summer. Is that the best time?

Susan:

Oh, I would say there's no bad time to visit. There are just differences. I like to go to Italian beaches, and think that's so much fun because the beach scene there is like theater. It's very formal with umbrellas and things.

I love the fall because it's harvest season, and it’s so beautiful to see the vineyards full and the olive harvest going on. During the holidays, all the lights are really beautiful. Then there's Carnevale in February, which is so much fun in Venice and other cities, like in Riomaggiore on the coast. And then in the spring, the gardens are amazing to see. And of course, the beautiful fruits that come up. There's no bad time, I guess! It's hard to choose.

Mary:

I know. It's like, you should go twice or 4 times. Thank you. I'm thinking of planning my next vacation, and I always say this whenever I'm talking to one of our guests. I'm like, “Oh, now I want to go.” And Italy was so amazing, I know I won't be disappointed when I return.

Susan:

Oh, absolutely. Go, and go with your children. That would be so great!

Mary:

Yeah, and if they're making me crazy, just knowing that the locals are probably enjoying it and thinking, “How cute!”

Susan:

There are so many nonnas around. I have to say that my 4-year-old granddaughter had a little meltdown at a market, and her American mother stood back and let her be. She got so many free strawberries, peaches, and everything. They were looking at the mother like, “Why aren't you taking care of your child? How dare you let her cry!”

Mary:

Give them everything, right? I'm sure my kids will catch onto that. They're very clever and smart. They’ll quickly pick up on that and start having meltdowns.

Susan:

Right.

Mary:

Getting filled up on sweets.

Susan:

Getting filled up with gelato, anything they want.

Mary:

Awesome.

Susan:

So good.

Mary:

Absolutely, I am so excited. Now, I think Italy is a can’t miss destination. Can you share with us what makes Italy such a can’t miss destination? What would you say?

Susan:

Oh, I would say that it's a country of art masterpieces, nature, and cuisine. And the most wonderful Italians who welcome you with open arms.

Mary:

Oh, I love that, and I agree. In my experience, having been there and being part of this Italian family, you’re definitely invited in with open arms, and it was beautiful for me.

Thank you so much, Susan. This has been such a pleasure for me. I've got your book, and I'll be looking and thumbing through it when I'm thinking about my next trip. It's just amazing, and I really appreciate it. I can hear your passion for the country, and I can see the smile on your face, so I’m excited. I'm definitely smiling.

Susan:

Grazie mille! It's wonderful. Here I am in LA, but talking about Italy just makes me so happy. So grazie mille to everyone for having us do this wonderful podcast. I really encourage listeners to look at the wonderful menu of tours to Italy, and all the different places to visit up and down the boot. It's wonderful to go with a group because that can help you avoid the crowds. When the guides know to reserve tickets in advance and everything is taken care of, it makes it so much easier for people to travel in a beautiful way.

Mary:

I've learned that planning your trip out, doing your research, identifying what it is that you want to do, what experiences you want to have, and ensuring you're planning for that is really important. Because this might be on someone's bucket list, and they may only get to go once in their lifetime, so really plan it out. And to your point, a tour guide can really be helpful.

Susan Van Allen, grazie mille. Thank you so much for being with us, and thank you to our listeners for being with us. If you are planning a trip, be sure to connect with a AAA travel advisor, check out aaa.com/travel, or visit your local branch. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe. I'm Mary Herendeen, thank you for traveling with AAA.